Jan Zálešák

• I would first like to ask you how important is your work as a curator00:00:07.769
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• in comparison to other activities that you do.00:00:15.752
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• You teach, write texts, books... so are exhibitions a cherry on top of a cake00:00:17.950
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• or is it something all your other activities are aimed at,00:00:30.107
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• or are all the other activities on the same kind of level?00:00:36.146
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• Well, it changes in the course of time,00:00:46.303
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• should I say what it´s like at the moment, so I´d say this is what I´d like to do the most00:00:48.143
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• but unfortunately I haven´t got the time.00:00:54.256
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• And there is a logical chronological sequence,00:00:56.271
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• up to the year 2010, when I worked in the Gallery of Young Artists,00:00:59.599
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• so I devoted half of my time to the institution,00:01:02.802
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• and I also did postdoctoral research, but most of my time I devoted to the gallery.00:01:08.781
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• And now I devote most of my time to the school of course,00:01:16.277
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• so it´s the cherry on the top of the cake because I enjoy it the most,00:01:22.284
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• but I have little time, so I try to find rhythm and find out how much I can do within a year,00:01:27.336
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• so that the work doesn´t turn into a duty,00:01:37.083
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• and the enjoyment isn´t lost.00:01:40.372
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• I need to enjoy my work, that´s what I like about it.00:01:42.755
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• I can benefit from it but I must admit that not as much as I would like to00:01:48.276
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• in terms of my teaching activities.00:01:55.813
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• So all these things run next to each other,00:01:58.203
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• but the courses I teach here do not specialize in curatorship,00:02:02.878
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• except for one course we started this year with Zuzana Jakalová,00:02:10.953
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• and which works well so far.00:02:16.722
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• We´re looking for ways to show our experience, too.00:02:17.764
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• You keep saying how curatorship influences your teaching. Does this apply vice versa?00:02:21.841
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• For instance you curated the exhibition S-flux00:02:38.170
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• which was devoted to teaching of art,00:02:39.845
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• so is it possible to find a parallel in the opposite direction?00:02:44.756
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• This was a project which was a part of a larger whole.00:02:48.804
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• It was a one-year project under the auspices of the Faculty of Art and Design in Ústí nad Labem,00:02:53.970
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• and about four schools took part in it, including the Academy of Arts,00:03:00.290
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• Academy of Arts and Design in Prague, Faculty of Arts in Ostrava.00:03:05.360
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• Each of the schools was supposed to come up with their own exhibition concept,00:03:09.418
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• that was back in 2012, and most of them were more or less standard exhibitions,00:03:13.811
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• giving the students from different schools an opportunity to cooperate,00:03:21.143
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• which was a sort of subliminal task,00:03:25.471
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• and me and Šárka Svobodová decided to focus more on the school.00:03:27.109
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• This was connected with my reading some new interesting texts on education at that time00:03:33.078
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• and also with the fact that I started working at the school shortly before.00:03:41.519
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• So I enjoyed working with the school as a kind of space00:03:46.009
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• and focus on how each studio was different,00:03:51.738
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• it was my first, intensive experience,00:03:54.718
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• I can´t really compare it to other schools,00:03:56.576
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• but I think it is more intensive at FAVU than at other places00:04:02.084
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• due to a certain isolation of the studios,00:04:05.674
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• each of them is a strange kind of unit,00:04:07.987
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• working independently and following a specific direction.00:04:10.694
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• They also differ in their approach00:04:13.413
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• and I thought it would be interesting to show all this.00:04:18.038
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• So except for the concept, the work of the curator was sort of poor,00:04:21.647
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• it was more about management of the space.00:04:26.219
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• Making sure every morning that the people would take turns there,00:04:30.523
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• that something would be going on there,00:04:33.542
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• each studio had 24 hours,00:04:35.648
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• the picture was being composed and the topic I like was present there,00:04:38.193
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• although it´s difficult to work with such a theme long, because it´d become a cliché,00:04:46.386
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• and that´s the time aspect of the exhibition,00:04:49.801
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• where something changes in the course of time,00:04:51.727
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• and you don´t get the chance to see it as a whole,00:04:54.126
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• but you just walk into some kind of a process.00:04:57.475
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• That was another important aspect we wanted to focus on00:04:59.778
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• and offer it to someone who has the opportunity to see it five, six or eight times,00:05:04.278
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• and each time get a different picture of the exhibition.00:05:09.433
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• Can you see any process that you use and repeat when preparing exhibitions?00:05:11.943
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• What I mean is whether you usually first have a theme and then start looking for works of art,00:05:21.458
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• or the other way around. Or is there a method that you repeat?00:05:28.378
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• Well, I usually first see some works and realize I like them,00:05:33.391
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• and that I´d like to do something with them,00:05:46.658
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• and then it all works in a kind of weird circle.00:05:48.584
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• The theme usually comes after,00:05:53.083
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• and it defines the things again later on,00:05:57.246
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• so there is a kind of feedback process which continues until it stops.00:06:00.313
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• I don´t remember ever first thinking of a theme and then looking for suitable art works.00:06:09.465
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• At the beginning there´s always a strong impression, experience,00:06:17.976
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• or a need to deal with a certain type of artworks than a certain type of themes00:06:22.163
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• because the theme mostly comes along with the artworks.00:06:27.214
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• As regards repetition in my approach or whether I like doing something again and again00:06:29.987
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• so I think there is one thing that I more or less unintentionally used in more exhibitions,00:06:40.258
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• and that is the fact that I like displaying artworks I had seen in new ways,00:06:48.306
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• set them in new contexts, offer a new space, a new kind of installation.00:07:00.210
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• I don´t know why but I feel it´s a space where I can talk to the artists and feel that I´m an artist too.00:07:07.286
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• We can then speak about how the artwork will be displayed and what it will look like,00:07:17.024
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• this is the process that I´m personally interested in,00:07:26.066
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• I can get involved in things that are related to exhibition design or architecture,00:07:31.200
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• or decisions which are more formal.00:07:37.423
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• This is connected with the fact that I like "the hands-on approach".00:07:40.452
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• I don´t simply get an idea, make a sketch and then go and see how the exhibition is installed00:07:45.871
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• and give an opening speech.00:07:50.655
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• Opening speeches - that´s exactly what I don´t like.00:07:52.043
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• What I really like is the week of installation.00:07:56.650
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• You spoke mainly about the formal aspects of staging artwork, what about the content?00:08:01.826
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• Do you have a characteristic approach?00:08:11.006
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• I´d say I don´t.00:08:17.390
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• There is no leitmotif, no recurring theme.00:08:20.445
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• To a certain degree this is also because I don´t sit an institution as a curator,00:08:26.052
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• and it´s not my job description.00:08:40.027
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• I usually respond to a specific thing.00:08:42.425
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• For example there´s a project or a grant with a general theme which I can take part in.00:08:45.699
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• So I say OK, I can prepare an exhibition. But the theme is already given in advance.00:08:54.814
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• I said that in the beginning I usually start with the artworks, so in case of the exhibition Memories of the Future II00:09:02.772
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• there was a general motif given by a grant,00:09:12.323
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• but what played a key role for me was meeting Agnieszka Polska00:09:16.151
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• and seeing her work during a school trip.00:09:22.456
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• I do exhibitions with a theme perhaps once every two years.00:09:26.319
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• So in the last six years I did three.00:09:36.478
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• They are mostly connected a bit to what is going on in contemporary art,00:09:43.162
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• but I don´t come up with my own themes or set some kind of a trend,00:09:52.063
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• It would be nice if I did, but I haven´t got that far yet.00:09:59.432
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• And another important thing, which I tried to explain during .00:10:03.562
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• the commented tour of the exhibition Apocalypse Me in Ústí nad Labem,00:10:10.767
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• is that during the exhibition I try to stay in a kind of state of ignorance.00:10:14.903
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• I myself don´t fully understand the art, sometimes it´s perhaps a bit too much,00:10:20.205
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• but for me an exhibition is not a means to give a definite answer to something,00:10:25.012
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• I enjoy the process of openness,00:10:32.118
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• and when I communicate with the artists00:10:35.776
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• I often half-intentionally don´t want them to explain everything,00:10:39.019
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• I don´t want them to give a perfect interpretation.00:10:45.115
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• I like to keep a certain distance,00:10:48.646
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• a certain amount of unawareness.00:10:51.623
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• I don´t know what the reason is exactly,00:10:54.034
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• but it´s perhaps because I used to write about exhibitions before,00:10:55.993
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• so I was on the other side as a critic or interpreter,00:11:01.762
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• and I still like looking at exhibitions with a little distance.00:11:06.943
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• The reason why I asked is that the themes of exhibitions are often related to your texts00:11:13.194
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• so how do they communicate with each other, how do they complement each other?00:11:23.474
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• Does an exhibition react to a text or vice versa?00:11:29.726
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• Well, this is a model which has been created only recently and is connected with to my work at the school.00:11:33.272
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• So in the background there is an institution,00:11:37.858
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• in the past three years we repeatedly managed to receive a relatively large grant00:11:42.795
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• for specific research, entailing the publication of a book or texts.00:11:52.596
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• However, we always found a way how to stage an exhibition within the framework of the grant,00:12:00.184
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• including a text of course.00:12:04.733
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• I tried out this model with the exhibition Memories of the Future II,00:12:06.413
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• where the exhibition and text originated simultaneously.00:12:15.085
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• The book isn´t written as a catalog of the exhibition but rather as an essay,00:12:19.542
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• or a study, which is parallel to the exhibition.00:12:25.252
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• It may not be a right comparison...I read an interview with Nicolas Bourriaud,00:12:29.098
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• in which he defined the Alter modern, and after curating the Tate Triennial exhibition00:12:37.915
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• he wrote a book The Radicant, which stemmed from the exhibition.00:12:46.128
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• So this principle, you cannot say everything through an exhibition,00:12:52.293
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• some things can be expressed really strongly, others not,00:12:55.860
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• but then they can be expressed in the text,00:12:59.514
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• so this is what I´m interested in now, what I´m trying to further develop,00:13:01.532
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• but it´s a slow process.00:13:06.305
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• I know that if I do it this way this year I´ll need a rest next year.00:13:09.345
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• You spoke about the connections between an exhibition and a book or a long essay.00:13:15.704
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• But what does the actual text accompanying an exhibition mean for you?00:13:21.546
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• Because I came across criticism concerning the exhibition Apocalypse Me00:13:26.725
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• saying that the text perhaps tells us too much about the exhibition.00:13:34.224
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• So tell us what role does the accompanying text play.00:13:40.879
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• Perhaps it is linked with the expectations what an exhibition is supposed to "do" with the visitor.00:13:48.222
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• I heard two completely different opinions.00:13:58.336
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• One claimed there was too much in the text and the other that a lot of things were missing.00:14:03.793
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• I must admit that I do tend to spoon-feed a bit sometimes in my texts,00:14:09.668
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• and it´s more intensive with solo exhibitions,00:14:21.402
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• when I try to work with one artist intensively00:14:25.932
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• in order to offer the artist and consequently the viewer an interpretation they may find interesting.00:14:34.711
• 00:14:34.711
• Perhaps I´m a bit autistic in this respect00:14:47.435
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• or I don´t expect any feedback,00:14:50.660
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• and there´s one thing I never do -00:14:53.802
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• I don´t write press handouts with elementary information,00:14:59.098
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• and do what you like with it.00:15:04.875
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• From the year 2008 in the Gallery of Young Artists00:15:06.389
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• I began to write texts which are a kind of narration,00:15:10.061
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• which are parallel to the exhibitions and are more and more verbose,00:15:14.739
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• but this is what I´m interested in,00:15:17.177
• 00:15:17.177
• sometimes it goes to "the extreme".00:15:20.310
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• I did an exhibition with Dan Vlček in the gallery Kabinet T in Zlín,00:15:28.223
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• for which I wrote a really long text00:15:33.883
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• and I wrote about different things which weren´t even displayed at the exhibition,00:15:38.929
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• it describes a sort of background of the exhibition.00:15:45.808
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• I asked about your texts also in connection with the viewer,00:15:48.026
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• to what extent do you think of the viewer in advance,00:15:51.627
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• what kind of a role does the text play00:15:56.188
• 00:15:56.188
• and how does it help the visitor to understand the exhibition.00:15:58.289
• 00:15:58.289
• I think it plays a big role, but I must admit00:16:05.175
• 00:16:05.175
• that I´m less and less able to put myself in the position of a model viewer,00:16:08.654
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• perhaps it´s the consequence of what I studied,00:16:17.442
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• I studied at the Faculty of Pedagogy,00:16:20.441
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• and I entered the world of art from the outside,00:16:24.477
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• I have the experience of the unknowledgeable viewer,00:16:27.274
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• who gradually discovers things for himself,00:16:31.087
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• and is grateful if somebody gives him a few hints and so on.00:16:34.803
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• So, I feel that I know what the necessary dosage of information is00:16:39.085
• 00:16:39.085
• for it to work well.00:16:51.195
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• I think this sense was stronger when I was writing art reviews,00:16:52.133
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• as a curator I feel I get so deeply involved in the process00:16:56.931
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• that I tend to lose this sense a bit.00:17:02.650
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• You mostly spoke about the text in connection with an ideal viewer,00:17:05.957
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• or about communication with the viewer through the text,00:17:11.247
• 00:17:11.247
• but do you think there is a difference in how knowledgeable viewers are00:17:15.745
• 00:17:15.745
• in different regions, for instance in Prague and smaller towns.00:17:22.672
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• Are you aware of this when writing? Do you take it into account?00:17:28.131
• 00:17:28.131
• Well, I think I don´t take into account the place as such,00:17:34.586
• 00:17:34.586
• but I rather try to imagine what kind of visitors go to the actual gallery.00:17:40.015
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• I can use as an example the gallery in Zlín00:17:44.035
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• where I have been many times before,00:17:45.686
• 00:17:45.686
• and we did a couple of exhibitions there,00:17:52.695
• 00:17:52.695
• so I guess I know what kind of people go there00:17:55.553
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• and that most of them are acquainted with contemporary art.00:17:58.639
• 00:17:58.639
• I don´t want to sound mean, but they aren´t the kind of people00:18:03.971
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• who go to look at pretty pictures on a Saturday afternoon because that´s what people should do.00:18:10.116
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• In this case I tried to write a lighter type of text,00:18:20.025
• 00:18:20.025
• although I must admit it also dealt a bit with postfordism00:18:26.762
• 00:18:26.762
• which isn´t for everyone.00:18:30.695
• 00:18:30.695
• Otherwise I think I´m a bit deformed00:18:33.977
• 00:18:33.977
• because most of the galleries I work for00:18:36.647
• 00:18:36.647
• have a quite well-established vistitorship00:18:39.911
• 00:18:39.911
• and I may speak without thinking whether I´m not talking in a too complicated way.00:18:45.945
• 00:18:45.945
• And I know there should be some functional literacy,00:18:57.076
• 00:18:57.076
• or some functional work with language,00:19:02.465
• 00:19:02.465
• if I knew I was going to the gallery in Veselí in Moravia where I come from,00:19:04.770
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• so I would have to look for different vocabulary, use less specific terms00:19:11.547
• 00:19:11.547
• and use more general language.00:19:21.877
• 00:19:21.877
• I´m naturally aware of this, but when I look back,00:19:29.563
• 00:19:29.563
• I realize I didn´t have to deal with this in the past few years00:19:37.765
• 00:19:37.765
• or I just tell myself "So what?"00:19:42.441
• 00:19:42.441
• Even in the Gallery of Young Artists we were always looking forward to visitors00:19:47.297
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• who weren´t pre-educated viewers of modern art,00:19:53.674
• 00:19:53.674
• and in the end the majority is the general public,00:19:59.045
• 00:19:59.045
• and so you primarily think of the people you meet in the gallery most often.00:20:03.353
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• which is natural.00:20:08.269
• 00:20:08.269
• What are the important tools when learning to be a curator?00:20:09.577
• 00:20:09.577
• What did you personally find useful?00:20:18.937
• 00:20:18.937
• And what do you think is useful or important in general when learning to become a curator?00:20:21.552
• 00:20:21.552
• The truth is that here specifically it is a bit like virtual reality00:20:33.727
• 00:20:33.727
• because it´s a course about curatorship for artists,00:20:42.688
• 00:20:42.688
• so we don´t expect the course to enlighten anyone00:20:45.841
• 00:20:45.841
• and want to be a curator immediately,00:20:50.524
• 00:20:50.524
• but we know that many people sometimes try to do exhibitions00:20:51.992
• 00:20:51.992
• and so we offer them thoughts and views from the other side.00:20:57.017
• 00:20:57.017
• I haven´t got much experience with specific curators´studies in the Czech Republic,00:21:03.636
• 00:21:03.636
• unfortunately I didn´t find the time to study them in detail,00:21:09.071
• 00:21:09.071
• but I formed my own opinion, in quite a radical way, in 2010 or 2011,00:21:13.681
• 00:21:13.681
• I´m not sure exactly,00:21:25.638
• 00:21:25.638
• but I attended with Jesper Alvaer and Isabela Grosse a conference in Kassel,00:21:26.649
• 00:21:26.649
• I can´t remember the exact name,00:21:32.321
• 00:21:32.321
• and it dealt with curatorship as a form of institutional criticism.00:21:36.740
• 00:21:36.740
• That was the first time I met all those well-established foreign curators,00:21:41.713
• 00:21:41.713
• such as Maria Lind and others,00:21:48.484
• 00:21:48.484
• and people who taught curators´studies at Bard College and so on,00:21:49.838
• 00:21:49.838
• and then there were the students who studied curatorship -00:21:55.614
• 00:21:55.614
• ambitious guys in their mid- and late-twenties,00:21:58.953
• 00:21:58.953
• who studied in Zurich, Stockholm or at the Royal College of Art in London,00:22:05.172
• 00:22:05.172
• and in those days it was strange for me to realize00:22:10.903
• 00:22:10.903
• that they speak the same language, they had learnt something at school,00:22:15.717
• 00:22:15.717
• and they all leave their schools with a certificate and very similar experience.00:22:19.837
• 00:22:19.837
• When I came back from the conference I was a bit disillusioned.00:22:26.729
• 00:22:26.729
• I thought it was more interesting and makes more sense to learn from the bottom, without a school,00:22:29.933
• 00:22:29.933
• it´s not necessary and so on.00:22:38.042
• 00:22:38.042
• In fact I still think it´s true.00:22:40.057
• 00:22:40.057
• I think that studying curator´s work, in order to learn the job,00:22:42.137
• 00:22:42.137
• is as interesting or as important at studying art.00:22:49.190
• 00:22:49.190
• You can gain something but it doesn´t solve much in itself.00:22:53.672
• 00:22:53.672
• What I find of crucial importance, and what most of us lack,00:22:58.706
• 00:22:58.706
• so the work of curators has different levels,00:23:08.411
• 00:23:08.411
• or some operational systems,00:23:11.229
• 00:23:11.229
• and we are all able to learn how to curate in punk or DIY galleries,00:23:13.114
• 00:23:13.114
• off spaces, we´re able to do an exhibition with a 500-crown budget,00:23:21.200
• 00:23:21.200
• we can all learn that,00:23:24.859
• 00:23:24.859
• but none of us is able to learn to organize an exhibition in a large institution with a budget of half a million.00:23:26.976
• 00:23:26.976
• It´s a type of competence which I don´t have a chance to learn here.00:23:33.955
• 00:23:33.955
• And this is what I find very interesting.00:23:38.723
• 00:23:38.723
• Is this also something one can learn?00:23:41.558
• 00:23:41.558
• Perhaps this is one of the reasons why so few curators win recognition abroad.00:23:46.287
• 00:23:46.287
• Is it also because there is a lack of professional experience?00:23:56.336
• 00:23:56.336
• On one hand it´s amazing we can all do things with minimum means,00:24:00.444
• 00:24:00.444
• but on the other hand it sets limits to our ambitions, imagination,00:24:06.599
• 00:24:06.599
• in our ability to use some installation techniques,00:24:11.729
• 00:24:11.729
• because we know we can´t afford them,00:24:14.255
• 00:24:14.255
• so we don´t even think of them.00:24:15.712
• 00:24:15.712
• This is an important topic which should be also dealt with at school,00:24:18.730
• 00:24:18.730
• and I can imagine it would be interesting for students of the curator´s studies.00:24:25.427
• 00:24:25.427
• I hope it´s being discussed.00:24:30.780
• 00:24:30.780
• We don´t solve it here now because perhaps it´s too far, an inside problem of curatorship.00:24:31.803
• 00:24:31.803
• We try to show the difference between curator´s work in an institution with art collections00:24:39.646
• 00:24:39.646
• and the work of a free-lance curator,00:24:49.001
• 00:24:49.001
• between specific types of exhibitions, for example focused on public art,00:24:53.749
• 00:24:53.749
• or an exhibition focused on something else.00:24:58.904
• 00:24:58.904
• We want to show that behind every area different decisions must be made,00:25:01.612
• 00:25:01.612
• a different strategy of different type of competence.00:25:07.480
• 00:25:07.480
• For example, somebody must deal with authorities,00:25:09.657
• 00:25:09.657
• it´s different to deal with someone who is in charge of a collection or an archive,00:25:11.586
• 00:25:11.586
• so we solve more general problems.00:25:16.163
• 00:25:16.163
• Professionalization is one aspect which will always be linked with the environment,00:25:21.129
• 00:25:21.129
• until most of our institutions remain contributory organizations,00:25:30.494
• 00:25:30.494
• where employees have open-ended contracts,00:25:38.188
• 00:25:38.188
• and just wait until they can retire,00:25:40.847
• 00:25:40.847
• we all know what it is like,00:25:42.993
• 00:25:42.993
• in the course of the last five years I can´t remember an open call for the post of a curator,00:25:47.513
• 00:25:47.513
• so these are visible limits of professionalization in the field of modern art curatorship.00:25:54.012
• 00:25:54.012
• But at the same time we have the opportunity to learn.00:26:00.875
• 00:26:00.875
• There are more and more opportunities to go abroad, apply for residence stays,00:26:05.059
• 00:26:05.059
• to meet people.00:26:10.742
• 00:26:10.742
• I often speak to Zuzana Jakalová and we´ve both noticed00:26:11.648
• 00:26:11.648
• a certain retardation of institutional work,00:26:17.787
• 00:26:17.787
• of curatorship and art,00:26:21.591
• 00:26:21.591
• many things which were successfully established for artists,00:26:23.768
• 00:26:23.768
• so only now similar things are going to happen also for curators,00:26:28.266
• 00:26:28.266
• since they have similar needs,00:26:35.020
• 00:26:35.020
• and without a broad outlook and understanding how things work elsewhere,00:26:38.811
• 00:26:38.811
• nobody can move ahead.00:26:45.494
• 00:26:45.494
• You can of course continue doing your job well...00:26:46.298
• 00:26:46.298
• I personally have been thinking for a long time00:26:49.586
• 00:26:49.586
• whether I can move ahead if I stay sitting on my chair in Brno,00:26:54.266
• 00:26:54.266
• but that´s another question...00:26:59.325
• 00:26:59.325
• I think that if you have the ambition, you want more people to know you00:27:06.780
• 00:27:06.780
• than just a few people here,00:27:14.754
• 00:27:14.754
• so sooner or later you have to simply go abroad.00:27:17.715

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